THIS IS THE SECRET TO HEALING TRAUMA (IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK)

Welcome And Setting The Scene

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi, I'm Kim Alexis. Today in Paris, Dr. Kelly is showing his collection of spring clothes. Hi, I'm Kim Alexis with your ticket to adventure. I'm Kim Alexis, and I'm here in New York City. Got a great show coming up for you, so stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

So we are here today with a wonderful woman who's become a friend. And she is the founder and the executive director of Hunkopi Programs here in Scottsdale. And Tara Shad. So Tara Shad, and thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. And I know there's so many other things that you are and that you do, and that's why you're here on the show. So um I love to start with your beginnings, like where you grew up in Illinois. And can you go into a little bit about what gave you your foundation or your drive to do what you do now?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's where everything starts, right? Yeah, I think it does.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Uh well,

A Childhood Devotion To Horses

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I was raised mostly from the time I was 10 on my great-grandma Minnie's farm in Illinois. And we took over it because um she had passed away. It was very cheap. We didn't have a lot of money. So our family let us live there for pretty inexpensively. Um and we were walking down the road one day, and there was an old farmer out with this pony. And I I have always loved horses. So since the time that I can remember, I loved them. I would jump out of cars for them, I would jump out of windows, I would run away from home. I it from the time I was three years old, like my earliest memories are just fleeing wherever I was and going to wherever I knew there was horses. Right. So um I even, you know, went, left my great aunt Zelly's house and ran down the road and jumped on off the back, off the this fence onto this little um pony's back named, I think it was Tony and Sugar. And I promptly like fell off. Right. And they, my grandma was right behind me. She must have known that I had escaped the house. But I was, I mean, I was a tiny kid. Right. Um, so I was just always wanting to be close to them. I love the way they smelled. I just knew that I had to be with them. So there was just this dream of having one. And then this farmer down the road um from our family's farm had purchased a pony named Smokey for his grandkids, and they didn't like him. And so he sold the pony, the saddle, and this like why electric wire fence for $150 to us. And um, it was just like the best day of my life. And um, we brought him, we had to ride him home. And uh that was the beginnings. Like I would sleep in the chicken coop with Smokey. I would take him everywhere. We were, we never stayed inside unless it was just frigid cold. Like we slept with Smokey. Um, and then he got he had cancer. We rode him to the vet because he had this mass on his chin. Um, and and he had cancer. And so from there, I just was always um driven to be with horses. I did whatever I had to do. I worked, I detassled corn, I walked beans, I paid for my horses that way. I got all my graduation money and I bought a horse. And um, it was uh a pretty high quality horse. I mean, it was $3,000 at the time, which probably back then was expensive. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah, so graduation money. That's even, you know. Yeah. So graduation from high school? From high school. But then you ended up leaving, right, to go to Texas AM.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

So I trained him and then sold him and then was able to use that money to go to Texas AM to go to college. Right. And so from a young age, did you think you wanted to be a vet also? Yeah, I either wanted to be a horse trainer or a vet, but it in Illinois, that's all I knew that you could do if you left horses, horse vet or a horse trainer. Right. So I knew that I had to do one of the two. And um, fortunately in AM, I got to kind of dabble with a lot of things. And I trained racehorses on a research project. I competed on the judging team and while I was going to pre-vetinary medicine school.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

So you didn't necessarily have training in how to train a horse, but you it was just intuitive to you?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

It was intuitive. I had I was in 4-H, so I got some lessons here and there, but I just had this kind of knack to be able to bond with them. And I understood, I think this is something that as a woman, um, you figure out somewhere along your life, right? But like you can't outmuscle it. And so you have to outsmart it and then create this relationship. You have to outsmart, partner up. Right. Um, use your use leverage, right? And I learned how to get in carrots and like you learn, you just learn how to work with the relationship in whatever way that you have the physical or the emotional capacity for. Um, and so uh when I was at AM, I got to work with some really great trainers and um like graduate students that were training horses professionally. So I always put myself around people as much as I could to learn the tricks of the trade. Right. And um, and then as soon as I graduated, I was gonna go to vet school, but I said, I have to get this horse training thing out of my system because it just isn't leaving. And I went and trained professionally up in Gainesville, Texas for a while. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

So how did you get down to Arizona?

Fate Brings Her To Arizona

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Well, I um I say fate. This is like, I think, where I started learning that fate takes over your life. Um, you know, there's somebody looking out for you. Um, I my college boyfriend was a collegiate golfer at University of Illinois. Um, and he was traveling the country as an amateur, like a a pro, a pro-golfer um on the on the smaller tours. Right. Had moved to Arizona, had met up with a woman named uh Dr. Debbie Cruz out of ASU, and she was completing research investigating the effect of sport on kids with special needs. And she had found through her research that horses were the most positive intervention for self-esteem and attentional focus. And she said, I have to launch this equine program. I don't know who to do it. And my ex-boyfriend said, You need to hire my ex-girlfriend, Tara. So that's how I packed up and moved.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

That was nice though, for him. So you said ex. So at this point you weren't dating anymore, but he still thought highly of you. And yeah, that's why I said you should always keep on good terms with your exes. You never know who they're gonna run into or who you need to network with. Yeah. So where did you learn? And you changed your majors from vet to uh counseling psychology? I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah. I um one of the benefits of being an ASU is that you could take courses for free, like $30 or something a semester. And so I first started in, I was really good at math and science in my undergrad. And so I thought I'm gonna go into the sciences somehow. Like I'm gonna go to medical school, I'm gonna go to vet school, like something.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um, and I enrolled in my first physical therapy class, and I started um, it was like a kinesiology class, and I it was, you know, had a lot of biochem and stuff, and I was like, I'm so done with this. Like, I'm just done learning this. And so I enrolled in an intro to helping relationships. Somebody called me on the phone and said, my daughter just got out of Ramuta Ranch doing equine therapy, and I had never even heard of it. Like we were more therapeutic riding, so working with chill, teaching kids to ride with special needs. And I'd never heard of this psychological perspective of equine therapy. And I said, tell me more about this. Right. And um, so she told me, and so I enrolled in my first counseling class.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Was that like a bingo?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yes, because when I walked in, the woman that I was taking the class from uh said, We have an equine program at ASU. And I said, Yes, she said, I'm a horse person. And then she basically she said, if you decide to do your master's under me, I'll be your graduate advisor and I'll let you do whatever you want to.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Well, wow, that's serendipitous.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

I know, right? So I started coursework to become um a counselor because I walked into her class, and that's where I say, like, if you just follow, just follow the crumbs, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

So lead you somewhere really, but sometimes you really have to scrap and make your way through which you've also done. Always. Yes, yes. So you may have either easy paths, but we also do have ones that are harder. And there were some times in your career where you chose the harder path.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

I I I sometimes do. I sometimes do. It finds me. Yeah. But I think, you know, when you're when you're that kind of person, I think when you, you know, I think as I get older and I've done I've had enough of those experiences where you realize that if you're an intuitive person and you have your eyes open to the direction that God or the universe wants to take you, that they're gonna put things in your way that ask you if you're really up to the challenge, if you're really ready to grow into that calling or that purpose. And so I think those challenges, I look at them differently now, and that like I have challenges and you know, I'm in the middle of a huge one right now, but but like how how fast can I get on my knees? And how fast am I digging for what's going on inside of my soul that needs to change, that needs to evolve right now because I'm getting called to something bigger.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Right. And I think a lot of people uh they don't uh go through that awareness like you're talking about. They might uh live it, but they don't understand that they need to be asking a question or they need to, they're not gonna go somewhere unless they're prepared for it. So this preparation in life, right? Is I mean, that life preparation is pretty much for all of us, and and hopefully we just continue to evolve and grow, which is why I love this show because there's so many people from so many areas that have so many great stories.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

I think one of my favorite quotes is you know, the um the lesson will repeat itself until the soul has learned. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

So that's even true. Like I've gotten delayed in airports in third world countries that have nothing for like 12 hours and the whole airport's closed. And I'm like, I am not complaining because if I do, I'm gonna have to go through this same problem again, right? Yep. And there's mice running around, and I'm like, oh my gosh. Yes, yeah, for sure. Right? Yeah, it's it's how you get through and pass these tests in order to be able to check it off.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Yeah, for sure.

The Program Gets Shut Down

SPEAKER_01 11:14

So talk about you say you had a mid-career crisis. So you were 10 years working at ASU with your horse program, yeah, and developing all of that and going from just working with children to working with traumatic adults, also, correct? So, what was your mid-career crisis like? And how did you get through that?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

That was in um 2008, the latter part of 2008, and the university was um deciding to cancel a lot of programs uh at that point. There was, you know, somewhat of a recession going on, like people were really pulling back. Uh, and they canceled the program. And uh they they let all of my employees go with and you know, basically said, if you say a word, like we'll let you go too. Like, we're gonna let you close this up, but you know, here's here's the politics of big big companies, right? Um, so uh I had 25 horses at the time, probably about I don't know, 15 or 20 employees. Uh, they canceled the program, let everybody go. So the university owned the horses? Okay, yeah. Uh and so had to shut that program down. And that was really uh maybe one of the first adult times where I had to say, okay, is this really your career? Like I had already gone 10 years. I had planned on just playing with horses for another year, then going and getting an adult job. But now I'm 10 years into the program and it had grown quite, quite large at the time. So I I it was it was one of those just soul searching moments where you have to say, like, is this really, do I want to start all over again? Like I'm just gonna start all over again. Like where we started 10 years ago, I'm gonna start all over again. Can I do that? Is there anything else in the world that I want to do right now? Is this truly my calling? And I at the at the end of it, you know, I said, there's nothing else that I want to do right now. And so I have to I have to figure out a way to do this again. Um, so I paired down to from 25 to five horses, moved everything to um my fiance and I's house at the time, and moved those horses up to Scottsdale because everything was based out of the Phoenix Zoo and Apache Junction at that time.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Okay. Yeah. And so then you your office was your garage.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

My office was my garage. Yep, for sure. Everything, files from 10 years, everything was in that garage. Um, and and I would just work out of the house and then um creative when you're in a garage.

unknown 14:01

Right?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Well, I gotta work in the kitchen too. So we'll go, we'll give myself that much, you know. Uh, you know, it it was just you go down to you go back to basics, right? Like you just go back to basics. At that point, I because we'd been at the university, I didn't know how to set up a fax machine. I didn't know how to set up a uh payroll. We I'd had 10 years running a business out of ASU, but we had the infrastructure of an office space, telephone lines, right, you know, all of it, word right. Yeah. And and so I had to learn how to do all of that stuff. Accounting, bookkeeping. I'd never done that. Did you learn that you didn't like it? I I still don't like it. I don't either. I still don't like it. So, but I know how to do it. Yeah, you know, I know how to do it. And so um, you know, I I I just started with a few few people again and pared it down to the we called them the fab five, you know, the best five best horses, and started doing lessons and went straight back to where we started and started rebuilding.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

What made a good horse for a therapy horse? Are they just super, super patient?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

The five that I chose, they were very diverse. So we had a young one, um, we had some older ones. They were patient, they were stout, so I couldn't have super tall or super little. They had to be kind of like mid-range, stout enough to hold varying riders because I couldn't bring all the horses with me. Right. Um they had to be diverse, so ones that could work on the ground as well as be ridden. Um, they had to be able to be hauled. Um, and and they had to be, they had to be sound. So we couldn't keep the ones that were limping or you know, the older ones. But I did find homes for them. But yeah, I'm sure you did.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

You're still doing business. Yeah. So how did you get to your 10 acres in Scottsdale? And I

Conflict With Neighbors And Finding Home

SPEAKER_01 16:12

think that's how you met my husband, right? My Mr. Fix Exit Man.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yes, exactly. Well, that was also a lot of challenge, right? Like you um, we we changed homes a number of times. We were getting kicked out of a farm um and then went to another farm. We're gonna get kicked out of that farm because the neighbors didn't want us, didn't want the program um at that location. Was that discouraging? Very. I'd landed what I thought was finally our home. Right. And uh to be met with uh such hatred was I I had no idea that people could be filled with such uh hatred. Right. And me just straight meanness.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Just meanness. Do you you must have extra tools though to be able to deal with people like that?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

I think no, I think your husband actually taught me a lot of those tools. Oh yeah. I was actually um, you know, I think because of my upbringing, it wasn't a very pleasant upbringing. Um I had a lot of uh fear around conflict. I had a lot of fear. I'd been silenced a lot. I'd been told to be quiet, you know, your opinion doesn't matter. Um, you know, that that type of home. Um, so when it was being asked of me to go like canvas the neighborhoods, talk to people, stand up for my program, that was terrifying for me. I probably, if I hadn't have met um your Jeff at that time, as well as a couple of the other board members that really just took me by the hand and said, no, you can do this. You can walk out. And I remember one day Jeff actually came to the house and he was like, You're walking now, and grabbed me and just like, I had riding boots on. I remember. I think he had riding boots on too. I don't remember, but I was not prepared. Like I would have gotten ready to go meet the neighbors. He was like, No, now's a good time. And he just still like courses grabbed my hand and walked like to the neighbors behind that were really causing like quite a quite a bit of they were definitely red on the map. Like we had green, yellow, and red. And we had to go after the people with red means angry, the against. Yeah, yeah, angry against signs up in the front yard saying, you know, the anti-hung copy signs.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

I would never want to walk, and this one, my husband, of course, would be the one to just march right in there and be able to talk to them. Yeah, he's got a gift, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yes, he does, he really does. And I think like that, like I think that's why it's so important to be around different types of people too, because you see, like in the same situation, I'm frozen and terrified, and he charges into it. Right, right. So if it's the same situation, it means it's actually neutral, right? It's it's a neutral situation. I'm just having a scary response to it, and he's having a fun response to it. Right. And so if I can look at that and like step back from the fear a little bit and say, but if I was him, I I would like this encounter. Like this would be okay. Right. So, how do I need to challenge myself to get out of fear and into curiosity around what could happen if I just knocked on the door? Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Right. Or hearing their opinion or be, yeah, that confrontation. I don't like the confrontation either. I don't know where mine comes from, but I am just not good at it.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Yeah, yeah. I I definitely shied away from it. And and that situation, how it eventually worked out, which we we had a lot of conflict in that situation, at least for me from my perspective. Um it really uh shaped me to to where I am now. Like, like it had a profound impact on me. In what way? Um not taking things personally, yeah. Uh standing up and uh believing in what I was doing and being okay to use my voice to share that.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Um did using your voice help clarify the program also in a way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yes, and the why. I was just working, working, working. Horses, horses, horses, horses. Like everyone must love horses. I do, sort of. Exactly. Like I and I just need to have the horses around me. Right. But then when you're in a situation like that and somebody's challenging you and saying, um, either making up straight lies about you or challenging what you're doing and the integrity behind it, which that's a big trigger for me, like my integrity. Or if um it makes you investigate your why. And my why had changed over the last 10 years, but I hadn't slowed down enough to understand that in 10 years I had gone from this uh young adult fresh out of college who just wanted to play with horses and be with horses because it satiated a need in my heart, right? To now uh my purpose is to give that same feeling to other people. Right. Like my my purpose is the people right now.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

But you understand it because you live through it. And sometimes that living through something is even though it's difficult, it's necessary because you get that empathy. Yes, yeah, yes, a hundred percent. Yeah. So let's see. So

Heartbreak Leads To Italy And Mindfulness

SPEAKER_01 21:40

then how did you get to Italy? A breakup. So you had a breakup, but then you said, I'm just gonna jump on a plane to Italy and figure things out, or I no, I that I um I was devastated because I was gonna get married and I'm

SPEAKER_02 22:00

about a month. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

And he broke up or you he did. Okay. Out of the blue. And out of out of retrospect, that was a good thing? Yes. Okay. Yes, for sure. Good to know. Good to know, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yeah. I mean those are also little things where I look back and I'm like, how like why was I going to do that? Yes. Well somebody was like very much looking out for me, right? Like I got on a plane. I was devastated. I flew to go see my graduate advisor who was at ASU, who had then moved to KU to be a professor there. I was very close with her. Where's KU? Kansas University of Kansas.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

And I just got on a plane and went to her and sobbed and laid on her floor and sat by the fire and she said, Tara, I'm going to Italy next month to uh to research mindfulness and leadership. And I think you could be really beneficial on the panel because you do all these team buildings and uh and you have a ticket to Hawaii to get married. So like why don't you just cash it in and trade it in for Italy. So I did. Ah see and I went there for the week and they offered me a job. And I stayed.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Another serendipitous moment.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yep. Yep. And when I was flying back from Kansas back to uh Arizona after visiting with her there was a woman on the plane that I was sitting next to. And you know how when you're in a breakup and you're just so sad and you don't want anybody to talk to you and you just want to be secluded. Yeah. I'm in my own bubble and don't break please don't talk to me. And this woman looked at me and she I probably was crying. I don't know but she was she said she started talking to me and and I told her a little bit about what was going on and she looked at me and she said honey you need to get a piece of paper out right now and write that man a thank you letter for breaking up with you. And I was like are you crazy woman? You know like I'm heartbroken right now and and I don't want to write I don't want to write a letter but I remember I still remember that to this day and I remember the moment where I was like holy crap I'm going to write him a thank you letter has a frame somewhere. No kidding but I did I wrote him a letter um eventually and I just said you know that's where I was able to notice you know my own faults in the relationship and and had come through Italy and and realized how precious that experience was as no matter how heartbreaking it was it I I grew so much. Like I would not be who I am today. I got to study mindfulness in Italy for two years. Like come on who gets to do that was there a language barrier or did they speak English or um it was an American university so I they spoke English at the university they had Italian horses. Yes exactly they had Italian horses and everybody else spoke Italian. So it was that was definitely an adventure because I was living in a little village so I had to learn how to maneuver my way around.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

You needed to know food and how to say please and thank you. Yes there was only a couple things you need to know.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Bathroom gas like how do you get the the gas there was many moments where it was like my card my debit card's stuck in the thing you know so you have to you have to learn how to survive a little bit there were a lot of uh pointing and yeah gesturing right exactly yeah all right so then oh and and while you were there in Italy also it says you learned neurofeedback. Mm-hmm so explain to me a little bit about how it's horses that give the neurofeedback or other people or well there um I didn't have horses I found horses there to ride but we weren't used to horses at the yeah that that was a beautiful story too but um but there we did um EEGs and um and also heart rate variability and heart rate the students wore watches so they were tracked like during these leadership um activities that we would do on how high their heart rate would go.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

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SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yes. I wasn't as involved with that piece but I did get to see some of the data and um and and also got to show how even though you're not exercising right like even though you're not doing anything physically that would cause your heart rate to go up that emotions actually have an effect on your heart rate. So like how do we learn to regulate it was all around emotional regulation being able to selectively choose emotions for being mindful enough to choose emotions that were appropriate for the situation. I mean we all need that yeah we really all yeah all do and it's so interesting what does what emotions get your heart rate up yeah yeah I mean pleasant and unpleasant emotions both get your heart rate up but those are only short lived but we have a tendency to really react and re react off of them right like you can react off of of rage as quickly as you react off of exuberation. Right. Right? They're short-lived you can't sustain that heart rate that respiration for long but what you can do in rage can be extremely life altering to not only yourself but other people if you don't have a regulatory function over it.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Right. So some people need to be taught that correct yeah interesting and that stems from their childhood I mean sometimes yeah for sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah yeah I I don't I still don't think you know I think there are humans that are born with higher impulsivity right like that I think that's a genetic trait.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Okay. Um so they react faster in more ways than some others that are yes mellow.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

They give they give into the impulse of an emotion faster than other people do. But equally people can learn to suppress and override emotions and that can be just as damaging yes right and I mean I would even go deeper that that can cause disease later in the body.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

A hundred percent yeah with without doubt it can yeah for sure I don't think we've even scratched the tip of the iceberg if you can scratch icebergs. Yes right yes yeah so that's all fascinating so then after Italy you came back and oh you I think was it in Italy where you said the body has to be in the room I don't know there's something um some quote that you've done before where when we pulled stuff up on you it said the body needs to be in the room.

Trauma Lives In The Body

SPEAKER_01 29:32

So I was not sure what that meant.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

I don't know what it means either although I do believe the body has to be in the room. Yeah yeah um maybe that we have to be present I don't know I guess maybe we can yeah I don't remember saying that but but for sure the body needs to be in the room and also I might say the body keeps a score ah of like being wronged or the body keeps a score of everything that happens in your life. So you know from you know even now like I I think there's ancestral trauma inside of people's bodies at a cellular level you know I I see that coming up in some of the clients that I'm working with now. But it keeps the story of your life. So with if you had birth trauma, if you had um in utero trauma if you had uh trauma as a first responder if you were in a car accident if like the it always it the body is always there to protect you to keep you alive and it does whatever it needs to in order to keep you alive. Sometimes it can be a maladaptive response or sometimes when we learn to do something to stay alive as a child and we get to adulthood and we're still utilizing that same protective response it can be maladaptive as as an adult when it worked as a three year old.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Right. Like having a little temper tantrum exactly yeah yeah so that's not pretty in an adult.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

No it's not no it's not but nor is nor is just shutting down from conflict you know like if you're smack like in my case smacked across the face or beaten because you were talking like you learn to shut up pretty quick when you're a kid right but then when you get older that's not and you have to use your voice because you're an adult that that shows up that's not the best that's not the most choice behavior.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

So what I love about your story is even if you came from a not so good childhood, instead of choosing to be a victim, you chose to not only work it out in yourself, but then help others work it out.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah I hope so yeah that's what's neat.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

I mean that's what gives you strength I think because you've you've lived it you've I mean so many of us why am I going through this? Well maybe you're going through it because you need to help someone else. Right. Yeah so talk about you um work with the first responders you made a program with them so what was that like?

First Responder Healing With Horses

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Well it is evolved to be one of the most important and sacred things that I have done in my life. Um we had a first responder that came in and volunteered at the program uh he was out of Colorado and he came to me and he said you need to start a program uh that that focuses on fire and police and I said okay so I wrote a grant got funded we did the first cohort yeah what is a cohort so we call a cohort a group of people that are going to stay together for at that time it was eight weeks long and so they stayed together as a cohort for eight weeks on the same curriculum.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Um and and we just started a cohort 30. So wow yeah okay yeah just last Thursday we started the 30th cohort since 2019. And how many people are in these cohorts right now they're enormous. I mean they're they're typically anywhere between eight and 12. We have two going at the same time right now and they're around 17. So they're actually quite big but we allowed a lot of people to come into this last one because it's the last one before the summer hits.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

And with that you know all all of the work from Italy all the mindfulness all the regulation and then you know there's it there's some deeper work in there too I I have post training in somatics and somatic experience uh and just understanding how uh the body the soma holds holds trauma right yes and then you you have your somatic equine experience you have so also I mean I don't want to stop with the first responders because that's it's all the same interesting yeah so I'm in uh that all gets integrated in for sure yeah so I mean I guess can you give me an example of someone you've helped in this area so that people can somatically yeah so people can understand. I think so many of these first responders coming in and and our program works with police fire dispatch military active and veterans so it's a pretty well rounded group of individuals that come in and what I've learned over the course of the last 30 cohorts um is that so many of these individuals went into this line of career um because they wanted to protect. Right and oftentimes that is coupled with some childhood trauma where they didn't feel protected. So when you're not protected as a child you grow you can you can grow up to be a victim but you can also grow up to be a protector. Right uh and so the intentionality in becoming a first responder is because they want to protect our our public right they want to be a protector and provide the protection they didn't have um keep people safe right so we do um an activity with the the horses that we have them approach the horse at the horse's pace. So if anything changes in the horse's body as the first responder is walking towards the horse we ask the first responder to stop and allow the horse to utilize their nervous system to assess whether or not they feel safe.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah and and go into a little bit about how horses are wired and why horses are so good for this therapy.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah well I mean they're prey animals so so they are they are able to sense danger from a very long way away they they can say like up to 40 feet they can feel they can feel danger. So they have to because they have to be able to flight right they they're not they're not predatorial so they so they have to be able to flight to get away to to save themselves. So um they have eyes on the side of their head they can see all the way around them except for directly under the nose and directly behind. And so they are very clear and that's one of the things I love about horses is either they feel safe or they don't feel safe. There is no other option. So if they feel safe they'll stand still and feel threatened they're gonna move away they'll move towards or away and they are always going to tell you with their ears so whatever direction they're looking their ears are going to point if they're angry their ears are going to pin and and they're very clear about it. And just because their ears pin also this is something that we you know we can talk about that just because their ears pin doesn't mean that they're going to bite you or kick you. It just means they're saying hey like something that you're doing right now is irritating me or I'm moving into fight response, let me give you a warning first. So they we can ask them to watch the ears and to take accountability for what their energy is bringing what is their nervous system their soma bringing into the space and are they allowing the horse to feel safe so if you have a um one of these first responders that's walking towards and every time something changes in the horse's body they pause it settles the horse can go back into normal horse behavior they walk so we call it pause and approach and then once they get to the horse I tell them that like to please allow the horse to come into their space to make contact with them. They don't make contact with the horse let the horse make contact with them which I mean really call they really want to touch the horse so they have to override impulse just to touch and the horses aren't trained.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

It's not like you need to train a horse to go approach people.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

No it's just a curiosity right just yes just curiosity. And if they are approaching at the pace that the horse wants them to approach or feel safe in them approaching then oftentimes the horse wants to move up into their space a lot more quickly. I mean our horses are definitely domesticated so it's not like we're putting them out with wild mustangs or something which would take you know two weeks to approach I don't know but but you're the tree. But they're still they're not haltered they're free. So um then we have the two humans come to we have them partner up human to human and we say one's going to be the horse and one's going to be the human and as one human walks towards the other anytime something changes in their partner's body just like they observed in the horse anytime something changes they blink faster their eyebrows go up their little pinky twitches. My eyebrows are going up yes their knee you know like they they shiver their heart rate goes up anytime they see something or the partner feels something there's they're designed to stop. Well they they say stop and then they can ask them to come back in and then we find what their boundary of their nervous system is. And so every day we wake up we have a different boundary around our nervous system sometimes we want people close sometimes we want people further away sometimes if we're agitated we want them really far away right sometimes if we're agitated we want them close but not touching we we want to feel the support but not touching so where is my nervous system today where do I need where where's my boundary and even not not from what your head says not your head saying oh I know that person I I want them to come up and give me a hug but from really where is your system telling you that you you feel safe with that person. And it's very interesting with especially military and um police they've been trained at um six feet to start like that's where the horse is trained? No when when when you walk into the space of a military or a police officer right because of their training they are um wired now they're trained to start to reach for their gun it is interesting I mean they're they do they're very very aware of they have to be they have to be right yes they have to be when they're at work but that goes home with them. And once that goes home with them then you're sitting in a life where you're constantly what we call hypervigilant you're always scanning for danger and you forget that not everything is dangerous. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Life is also good unless you spy unless you're a spy right constantly knowing okay they're wearing blue they had this they knew how to but that's how the cops think like that too right like they start they're always constantly it's whatever you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

So so if you're trained to always look for danger that's all you see but you don't see goodness either.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Right. So your nervous system is always and it causes stress.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yes exactly so we want them to begin to notice like the difference between what's actual and real like actually I feel safe right now but all of a sudden this this training comes online and I'm reaching for my gun. Right. Even though this person isn't armed like it's a person in your cohort across from you. Right. So when we can teach them the natural activation deactivation cycles of a nervous system by watching the animals by engaging with the animals and then also allowing them to touch and feel what does it feel like in your you're an animal person I know for you know like when you touch an animal you don't have to think hey Kim touch the dog your hand is just already touching the dog yeah right yeah so you would have to override your impulse to touch the dog. Yes so when I have a first responder that's coming in and saying like I'm isolated I'm angry all the time I don't trust anybody I don't I like I've lost connection with my children. I'm drinking I'm drinking well when I walk them close to a horse and then their hand automatically goes out and touches the horse I'll say can you just notice your hand touching the horse or can you just notice your hand touching the five million dogs that are on my farm you do have a lot of dogs. Yes but so what does that feel like what happens in inside when you do that what what's what are you noticing on your face right now I don't know it will feel into your face there's a smile yes would you say that's pleasant or unpleasant it would be it's pleasant. What emotion would you call that? Happy would be content okay did you have to think about touching my dog did you have to think about touching the horse so now I can begin to say so even though right now with people you feel that you don't trust them that you're losing connection that you're isolated there's still something inside of you that wants that like I didn't ask you to do that. Right. You did that all on your own right right so let's in let's start to engage with the part of you that that is still inside that that isn't broken. Right that that isn't damaged from your career. Let's start to build on that and just feel into the attachment feel into the connection feel into the impulse to want to touch. Allow yourself to to pet pet and feel the softness and and see which direction your hand wants to go because they'll they'll be the dogs will be all over them. The horses will be you know and they want that but they have they have this belief that they're broken that they've lost everybody that they can't love that they can't trust

SPEAKER_01 44:00

They've conditioned themselves, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:02

And I think actually probably they, you know, because of various traumas, they probably have pushed people away. Probably anger has come on, isolation has come on. And we can also address, you know, sometimes the need, like we talk a lot about uh coming home off of shift of 24 hours or 48 hours or whatever they're working and not giving themselves the time to allow their system to settle because they've been away from their kids. Then they walk straight in the house and they get angry at the children and they just need 20 minutes to deactivate. Yeah. But why can't you ask for that?

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. Right? Like they don't know they need it or can't voice that. Or so you help them become aware.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Yeah. Like, like, can we just can we just talk about that? Like, what do you actually need? Like, what go walk over there? Just give yourself permission to walk away for a minute and see what happens inside of your system. And I teach them to track and notice what's happening inside of their system. What happens to your heart rate? What happens to you know, your respiration? What happens to your thoughts? What do you actually need to feel safe right now? You feel safe. You you spend your whole career making us feel safe. What do you need to feel safe? Can you voice that?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, that's wonderful. So that's your son some sonomic somatic somatic equine experience. Yeah, right. And you have copyrighted that. You were coming out with curriculum to be able to help teach others around the country. Yeah. Or the world.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Probably the world, right? Yes. You think big. I think big. Yeah. So um, oh, and then you went to Israel.

Israel Calling Plus A Founder Choice

SPEAKER_01 45:38

I did. So what they I miss it. You do. Yeah. So that was that another kind of random, or was this pre-planned? Did you have someone over there? Were you trying to learn something new?

SPEAKER_02 45:52

I um I got the opportunity to work with a couple of soldiers in the IDF. And um, you know, the first responders have sharpened my skills. Like my my ability to deal, to be with um really intense flashbacks and emotions is pretty high. Um I I have I have a capacity for it, I have the training for it, and I and I was asked to step into I was asked to step into it. Right. Um I didn't know that I was being asked to step into it, but I I was being asked to step into it, so I did. But you're one that says yes. Yeah. And once I realized how my skill set had grown substantially, I felt a calling to go over there to support the soldiers that were coming directly out of the battle and to teach and to give the therapists there that were also in war and and trying to do therapy at the same time to give them support for their own systems. Right. Um and this was a couple of years ago. Yeah, two years ago in March. So I went over there for a week.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

So in what I've read, there was a pivotal moment, a career moment. Is that around this time where you had to decide if you wanted to be a founder or a counselor? Did something come up?

SPEAKER_02 47:37

That was about 10 years ago, probably. Yeah, yeah. I um there was a point with the Arizona board where um I wasn't independently licensed and they um were asking me if I could either be, I could either be the founder and not have of hung copy. Of hung copy, the business operator, or I could be a counselor because I couldn't have supervision in a company that I was managing. That law has since changed. Um, but I chose to be the founder because I felt like it was more important at that time that I um that I guided the ship um and brought in clinicians that could also do really good work. Right. Um, but that that law changed. Oh, that's nice. Nice for you.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yes, nice when people fight for for rights, yes. Um and I love that you you help other people figure out their unique contribution. I don't know, it's just something that came up. I just love that. Know where your unique contribution is. And uh I just think that you're um it's you have such a I and I'm learning, and I've I've known you, but I haven't known you, right? And you're the one who helped get Jeff and I together years ago. I mean the crazy little triathlon habit. Well, no Iron Man, that's not even a triathlon. You have to, I mean, you are you've done three Iron Men. I've wanted to do one, I've done eight marathons, but I've never done an Iron Man. But I was a swimmer growing up, so for me, that was like, huh, yes, everyone can ride a bike and I know how to do marathons, but the swimming is the hardest part, I think. That was your thought.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Mine is yeah, swimmers have a totally different orientation towards Ironman's, I think.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you were in Boulder and Jeff helped you train on the bike portion. Yes, he did. And he goes to Boulder and I was in Boulder, and that's how we met. Yeah, he never watched you on your iron. Nope. Nope. It's okay. He had bigger plans, and I'm happy for it. And then after we got married, you got married. Yes. Yeah, to Rob. I did. Yeah, because so Rob was helping you with your running portion. Yeah, exactly. The running portion.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

All these you have to have good training partners, right? That are gonna go out and suffer with you when you have to do that, those long trainings. So yeah, he would go out and do the long runs, and Jeff would do the long rides with me. Sometimes they'd do a handoff. I remember one time I went and rode like 90 miles or something out with you on Lake Mary Road, and then came back in and had a run to do, and Rob met me up in the mountains and we went and ran.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

You're amazing. So yeah. So, what was your best time for your Iron Man? Uh 1238. That's wonderful. For a woman, that is wonderful. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Was it the one in Boulder where the Jeff missed?

SPEAKER_02 50:36

No, uh uh that was um in Arizona.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Okay. Okay. So um can you talk about meeting your real father in Hawaii?

Meeting Her Father And Hawaiian Roots

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah, yeah. And how you you weren't sure, weren't didn't you grow up in a family where they were all blonde hair and you thought, what the heck? Yeah, who I where do I belong?

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah, for sure. We I grew up in Illinois. Um, I was raised by my stepfather. I have it's two other, I have a sibling, uh, sister sibling and brother sibling, um, but never really felt like I fit in. Um just in that Midwestern culture, I guess. And then and I was darker complexed, and I it just, it just, I never really felt like I fit in. Then when I went to graduate school, um a doctoral student actually came up to me and she said, I heard that you're Hawaiian. I'm from Hawaii uh and I'm doing my dissertation on spiritual belief systems of Hawaiians that have lived and not lived in Hawaii. And I had never been to Hawaii at that point. Right. And she said, Would you be interested in taking my survey? And I took it and she said, I I can't even explain to you how similar your spiritual beliefs are to that of a native Hawaiian having never been there. Like I was raised very Christian, uh, you know, assembly of God, Pentecostal type type background. Um and that is really what prompted me to feel like I had to go to Hawaii. Like I had to understand. So I reached out. My my biological father was still single um up until probably my mid-30s. And then he married a woman who um was Mormon and was adamant that he got in touch with all of his children. How many did he have? Um, well, we find more and more. My goodness. I don't know them all. I think he has four, but that's that was my last count. Okay. Um, but I reached out to her because I I knew that she could definitely connect. And I said, I really need to go to Hawaii. Like I need to understand this who I am, and I want to meet my family in Hawaii. And she said, Well, why don't you come meet us in Puerto Vallarta first? And so I did. I flew to Puerto Vallarta, met her, met him. She had started reaching out to me. He didn't keep in touch with me, but she had started reaching out, sending like birthday cards and cards and things like that. And so I flew and met them. That was a very it was very interesting to meet somebody that you're biologically related to, but have never spent any time with. I bet.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Did you have to use like your own training of well, you're very much into self-analyzing, right? So you must have been like, okay, how do I feel and what am I thinking?

SPEAKER_02 53:40

And yeah, it's a little surreal though. Like I mean, there was moments where I and still, even when I see him to this day, I'm like, okay, this person is my father. I got that thing from him. Like, like mannerisms, even though you think are yours, they're not yours.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Right. You were thousands of miles apart. Yes, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I have once of my sister, and I mean, I don't I'm not with her now for the last like 50 years, but yeah, her and I both, the little faces, and yeah, it's amazing how that is so cool.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah. Genetics are so cool. Yeah. And you know, I think yeah, it's nature versus nurture, right? Yes. But and both are important. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So I wouldn't say that we have a close relationship, but um, I I see him every year. Um, and and it's important, I think.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Do you like surfing? He's a surfer.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

He my family is Hall of Fame big wave surfers. Like, and I'm terrified of that.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Did you pick it up? You didn't pick it up right away?

SPEAKER_02 54:47

No, and I don't even like swimming. Really? No, I don't even like swimming. You're a triathlon, you're supposed to like swimming. I know, but I avoid it. Um, and so yeah, he actually, it was really kind of cool because he uh surf with Sam O'Neill, like all these big guys that my cousins have an annual surf competition. I mean, they're they're like legendary surfers. Yeah. I was like, I have to be able to do this. Like, but I get out there and I think I'm I'm like the land Hawaiian. I like I'm the paniolo, right? Like I want to be on the horses, I want to be in the mountains. The water terrifies me. I have complete reverence for it. Right. But definitely the peace of the connection to the earth, to the land, they open their surfing competition with ceremony. Like they blow in the conch shells, they make offerings to the ocean, and and it's it's ceremonial. And that to me, I definitely have that piece inside of me of reverence to the land, reverence to the earth, like a connection to it, being outdoors, like communicating through nature. Yeah. Definitely have that.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah. Well, you have been wonderful. I have learned quite a bit.

How To Find Hunkapi And Closing

SPEAKER_01 56:00

I hope our listeners have also. Where can people find you and how can they help?

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Well, they can find Hunkapi at our website, uh um hune copy.org or on Instagram or Facebook. I think we have LinkedIn. I don't use this so much, but uh you can uh please volunteer, sign up for events, sign up for farm tours, come meet the horses, be a part, refer a first responder, refer um, you know, if you are struggling with any um sort of challenges or mental health. We have incredible therapists that are here to provide support and our herd of horses, of course, are always there. Yeah. Um, and then I'm at Ter at Terashad at Hungopy or at Terashad on Instagram and Facebook. Okay. So if they can find me that way. There you go.

unknown 56:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Well, thank you so much for being on Unexpired. You're definitely unexpired. I'm not sure what's next for you, but we'll see. Yeah. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

It's unveiling itself.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

There you go. Thank you. Thanks for watching the show. If you have any questions for me or you want any more information, go to kimalexis.com.